Sunday, November 2, 2008

Ruling Out McCain?

Here is a nice article which I totally agree with from Bishop Tobin of Rhode Island.

Note the following quotation:

"I don’t know about you, dear reader, but I could never vote for a candidate – of any party for any office – who supports laws that promote or allow the death of thousands of children in the hideous crime of abortion. I just don’t want that on my conscience. "

22 comments:

The Catholic Journeyman said...

I dont understand your title question..."Ruling out McCain"

How do you read that into this Bishops statements?

BTW, happy Sunday Joseph!

mattwatson said...

That's weird. I just read the same article earlier today.

Rene'e said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
~Joseph the Worker said...

Catholic Journeyman,

Have you been reading my blog? :P McCain supports laws that "that promote or allow the death of thousands of children in the hideous crime of abortion." - namely supporting abortion "certain cases". That rules him out to me. I don't think that's what the Bishop "meant", but sticking to his statement 100% would rule out McCain to me, and is the same reasoning that led me to vote 3rd party. Not to mention his support of stem cell research which, whether using "new fetuses" or "existing fetuses" is still intrinsically evil.

Matt,

Good to see you!

Rene,

Glad you are coming around to an understanding about us 3rd party voters :)

Greg said...

I hope and pray that you work just as hard to convince the 50% or so Obama-supporting Catholics to vote 3rd party. We've got lots of them in our parish you know... some in high places. If you fail to convince them, I hate to think of the consequences of an Obama/Biden presidency. Your baby-death projections under McCain will be nothing compared to what Obama publically says he will do. Obama will do all the things you say McCain will do, plus a lot, lot more. God help us.

~Joseph the Worker said...

That's a tough call for me, Greg. If you feel so discerned to do that yourself, then I think it's great, and you should. I am so disenchanted with both of these candidates that I leave other people to form their own consciousness. The way I see it, whether McCain or Obama is elected, we are going to have a whole lot of terrible things going on including:

Abortions under both (and the sad thing her is Obama is the one will probably increase abortions, but is the only one with any kind of plan to actually help pregnant women, something McCain has never said anything about).

Stem Cell research under both

Innocent humans (born, unborn, children and adults) all being murdered in an unjust War in Iraq

An even greater ignorance of the poor (definitely under McCain but probably under both)

A decline in concern for environmental issues (most likely greater under McCain)

Possibly an increase in euthanasia (probably under either McCain or Obama, especially because this is a state issue so far)

A disregard for the fact that immigrants (legal or illegal) are human beings and need to be treated with respect.


I could probably go on forever, but I'm convinced that either one of these individuals is going to bring a lot of terrible things to this nation. I'm also not equating everything together, but I see the intrinsic evil of abortion on both sides, and I am not convinced by any stretch of the imagination that McCain cares about the unborn in any serious way other than using it to get elected.

The Catholic Journeyman said...

Sorry....I am with Greg on this.

Taking your vote away from the only Candidate close enough to defeat Obama, by voting 3rd party, is giving your vote to Obama. No 3rd party candidate has a chance. Its a vote that only serves your individual conscience...wheres the Catholic Unity in that?

Voting for McCain is the best use of my Catholic Conscience to defeat Obama's documented evil potential.

Calculating both Candidates potential for intrinsic evil, its a no brainer.

~Joseph the Worker said...

Except the fact that you are giving your vote to Evil.

The Catholic Journeyman said...

lesser evil.

Greg said...

Joseph, this is where you are driving me nuts. You say you cannot be judgmental in telling people they cannot vote for Obama. Then you turn around and tell people that they cannot vote for McCain because he is evil.

Joseph, I do love ya man, but you are not making any sense here. You have used Church teachings and quotes to justify why people might choose to vote for Obama, but you will not allow them to use the same teachings to vote for McCain?

I'm fine with you voting 3rd party if you wish. But I think you need to be consistent in your logic. If you are going to preach to McCain supports, you need to take the same preaching to Obama supporters. This should be easy as there are a lot of them in our parish.

~Joseph the Worker said...

No I'm just teasing Catholic Journeyman. Sorry :) I understand his (and your) decision.

The Catholic Journeyman said...

Aint easy being RC ;^}.

My wife, as devout an RC as I am, believes overturning Roe v. Wade wont stop and will increase coat hanger (IE. back alley ) abortions, and result in the deaths of countless young pregnant women, who overall would be seen by the Church as invincibly ignorant otherwise and are then victims of this whole issue.

Its probably the toughest decision anyone has to make. Mind bending. The moral geometry is remarkably complicated.

The fact that any Catholic has a well founded stance is hard to argue.

Peace, again you all.
-Dave

Julie said...

Father Pavone made a fantastic Youtube video about what to do when our election choices are not the best no matter which direction we look. I would not do justice to his explanation so I will just leave you with a link and hope that you will listen to his words of wisdom on this issue. God bless.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz3uofJESIc

Greg said...

Thank you Julie, and thank YOU Fr. Pavone! Makes sense to me, how about you Joseph? ;-)

By the way, I love and deeply respect the work of Fr. Pavone and Priests for Life. His ministry has had a profound effect on my family, and especially my wife. God bless folks! Good luck sleeping on this fine election eve!

Rene'e said...

The Catholic on-line community seems quiet tonight. I am feeling a deep and heavy saddness in my heart. I do not know what tomorrow brings. Whatever happens, I pray God will bring a greater good from it.

Lord Have Mercy.
Christ Have Mercy.
Lord Have Mercy.

mattwatson said...

Taking your vote away from the only Candidate close enough to defeat Obama, by voting 3rd party, is giving your vote to Obama. No 3rd party candidate has a chance. Its a vote that only serves your individual conscience...wheres the Catholic Unity in that?

I want to make a point that it's not all about who wins. The more votes third party candidates get year by year could eventually lead to a well-worth victory many years from now. A candidate like Ron Paul is what we need. Catholic Journeyman, I would strongly suggest this documentary for you to watch. It shows how both parties support stealing from the American people through inflation which is directly caused by the Federal Reserve. I have never seen McCain or Obama even try to address the crimes of the Federal Reserve.

Furthermore, the two parties not only do this, but they also control things like the debates, by which they control what you and most other American voters talk about at the office and on blogs like this.

Sorry for the rant, but I don't think I or Joseph is doing anything wrong in trying to vote for a candidate who actually sticks up for the values of Christianity, including the Catholic Church, more so than John McCain, who stands for violent foreign intervention, deception through war, stealing from Americans and corporatism. The first in that list, as Joseph has so elegantly pointed out, deals with life just as much as abortion.

Sorry, again, for ranting. Now here's my question: Why don't you support someone like Chuck Baldwin, who is in line with much of Ron Paul's beliefs? Since abortion is a big issue, let me note that Baldwin is for Paul's proposed Sanctity of Life Act, which would immediately make abortion illegal and take the issue out of the realm of the Supreme Court. If John McCain is supposedly pro-life, why doesn't he support the Sanctity of Life Act, or any initiative close to it for that matter?

mattwatson said...

Sorry, here is the link to that documentary I talked about.

~Joseph the Worker said...

Thank you Matt. you have to forgive these McCainiacs. They are, in my opinion, stretching the teaching of the Church to extremes. And, I love and respect them all for their dedication to life, but for someone like you who is a non-Catholic, I want you to know the truth and fullness of Christ's teachings, and I think if you want to learn more just ask on the CoC-Catholic board.

The Catholic Journeyman said...

Matt - as strong and valid your 3rd party position can be, and I do see its merit, the damage a man like Obama is capable of and is preparing to deliver, is the target....the weapon happens to be a marginally weak McCain.

I especially agree with your 3rd party building concept, however, my generations very aggressive attempt at that with Ross Perot over 20 years ago proves its also a pipe dream...unfortunately.

~Joseph the Worker said...

That's silly. Ross Perot could have (and was) winning that election. The only reason he lost was because he said the Republicans invaded his wedding and started talking about aliens from outer space.

I hate to beat a dead horse, but the only reason you can tell me that I "have" to vote for McCain is because you say it "has" to be either him or Obama elected. Why would you feel that way? Polling. And, because of polling, I could turn around and tell you it "has" to be Obama period. McCain has no chance period. And my one vote is meaningless either way in that race. (especially in my state), and thus your argument holds no water.

It doesn't anyway, because you are binding where the Church does not bind. Go back to my original post about faithful citizenship and read what the Bishops collectively said in the document about voting.

The Catholic Journeyman said...

Uncle. Calm down Sir...I like your point and you dont "have" to give you vote away to Obama...I promise. ;^)

(I still voted Mc/P today)
-Dave

P.S.
It was Stockdale not Perot who was abducted by aliens...remember? Yes he lead like 39% to 25% and I was on fire about that "Giant Sucking sound" from Mexico, and yet that team self-destructed.

hmmmmm.....Nader?

Love,
-Dave

Greg said...

Well, on this sad painful day, I'm glad I can get a chuckle or two from you fine folks.

McCainiacs. Good stuff!

I love the idea of a strong third party. I wish it would happen, but I think the two dominant parties will never allow it. Good luck though.

Yes, I too voted for Ross Perot. Mr. Clinton can thank him for that election. I was actually thinking about him earlier today... how if he ran this year he probably would have won, as his message was solely on the economy, had a good plan, and probably the majority of voters today voted on that issue alone.

May God have mercy on our country. Forgive us Lord, we know not what we do...